Channa sp. assam questions

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Channa sp. assam questions

Beitragvon Gwyneeth » 28.05.2010 - 21:19

Hello to everybody!

I was just clicking stuff to get registered so it's a miracle I actually am registrered :lol:

A member of another forum said I should ask some channa questions here, that you love questions so I wanted to indulge you :D

My name is Ksenija, I'm from Croatia, I breed bettas and I own first channas in Croatia. Informations about assams are not easy to get, especially about some things.

My channas are still very joung, they're about 10 cms long. I have 6 of them. They've just been transphered in a bigger tank few weeks ago. At the same time I started raising their temperature. I guess it triggered some behaviours.

They're not very territorial (they lived very peacefully all together before), all males are fighting (the biggest the most), and two females also have some missing scales. I see that fighting behaviour all the time (they bloat their mouth and dance). The big male already has many missing scales and torn fins so I'm a bit worried.

Should I separate some? Which?

How do pairs act and how do I know for sure I have a pair, if I do?

Thank you in advance for all your answers :D

This is how it looks when they fight:

Bild
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Beitragvon feli » 29.05.2010 - 05:32

Hello Ksenija,

welcome aboard! I am sure you will get some helpful answers on your assam. I myself am not a channa specialist, yet, but I´ll try to help.

How many assam are in the tank?
Is the injured fish on the pic? I cannot see any injuries. Are there plenty of hiding places in the tank? Did you redecorate? That could be a reason for the fighting, happened with mine, because they had to setlle the territory issue anew.

Just make sure there are plenty of hiding places like caves & plants to break line of sight and give them somewhere to hide if needed.

Just out of interest: how big ist the tank?
And at which temperature are you keeping them now?
Do you know that they need a cooler phase during winter?
Do you have a pic of the injured fish?

You´ll know that you have a pair if the stay together a lot and seem to get on well.
Can you tell what´s male or female?
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Beitragvon GaNjA » 29.05.2010 - 06:09

Hey Ksenija!
Good to have some other Betta breeders here on board
:P
MfG
Marco Graumann
mobil neue nummer, hab ich aber nicht im Kopf ;)

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Beitragvon chk » 29.05.2010 - 12:05

Hi Gwyneeth,
welcome here in this board.
Your friend was right saying we love questions :D
The photo shows two fighting ones. It would be best two separate those acting like this. In consequence you have to install other small tanks adding one fish after the other into another box. I tell you so because they would die else due to the occuring stress.

I practice it the same way. I do have 10l boxes with cover for this. Add 5l of water and dried leafes (oak, sth. else). You can keep the fishes that way several weeks until you have another tank adding them there.
This is a picture in respect to their sex dimorphism
Bild
Guess which is the male? :wink: ... Yes your are right. It is the left one. Look at the head shape. But yours possibly a bit too small for seeing the difference. Try and report.

BTW: check out this article: Breeding report of C. sp. "Assam"
Regards, chk
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Beitragvon Gwyneeth » 29.05.2010 - 12:54

Hey guys and gals :D

Thank you for your answers! I was suspecting the same thing, but what do I know :lol:

How many assam are in the tank?
Is the injured fish on the pic? I cannot see any injuries. Are there plenty of hiding places in the tank? Did you redecorate? That could be a reason for the fighting, happened with mine, because they had to setlle the territory issue anew.


Acutally it is but it wasn't that injured when I took that picture. Here's a new pic I took yesterday...

Bild

He's acting normal otherwise and they all eat and swim very peaceful otherwise, except occasional fights.

And you're right, I did redecorate. When I put them into the tank it hardly had any decoration (they've been in 20 l tank by now cause two of my other 80 l tanks broke!), then I added some wood and plants. I'm trying to make a biotope but that's not that easy as there isnt really many plants I can use.

I'm planning on putting more plants.

Just out of interest: how big ist the tank?
And at which temperature are you keeping them now?
Do you know that they need a cooler phase during winter?
Do you have a pic of the injured fish?


80 l (cca 20 cms of water). It's 80 x 30 x 35 cm. I got it just for them to be long and not high. There are 6 of them in it. And yes, I did keep them at the winter temperature (20 degrees) by now, and as naturally temperatures started to rise at spring, so did their waters temperature rise. It's about 26 now (with heater set to 24).

Here's the pic of the tank:

Bild

I plan on adding more things. Maybe I should have done it first before adding the fish, but as I said, they were in 20 l and I transphered them as soon as I got the tank when it had only sand and one big piece of wood.

I create more caves with IAL leaves (they seem to love it). Do you think I should add more rocks or wood to form more caves?

Just to say that I don't indent do leave them all in there. It's much to small for them. I was planing to leave them as lons as it takes for them to form a pair, then keep the pair and give others away.


You´ll know that you have a pair if the stay together a lot and seem to get on well.
Can you tell what´s male or female?


I do have one male and female that are more together than not... but then again she seems to wonder around a lot and he's guarding his cave. So I believe it's just a coincidance for now.
Yes, I'm pretty sure I can distinguish males from females as it's pretty easy. Males are generally more colored, have higher dorsals (with longer first ray), they have brighter blue in their fins and their head is more masculine.

Something like on your pic chk, tho not so hard yet.

BTW: check out this article: Breeding report of C. sp. "Assam"
Regards, chk


I did, thank you! Will read it later (coffe's getting cold right now :lol:)



I really hope I wont have to separate them. I might just wait and see if the aggression will stop eventually when they see which cave is whose.


Oh one more thing (regarding pairing): the breeder (Armin, I believe you know him!) said they're already F1 and that F2 breeding hasn't been documented yet. Could it be the reason for them not pairing by now?
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Beitragvon chk » 29.05.2010 - 23:37

Gwyneeth,
a little hint.
The tank is too light and has not enough shelter for the fishes.
In their habitat they live very shelter in roots and plants, especially the male.
Add as many roots as possible.
80cm tank is too small for so many C. sp Assam!
Regards, chk
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Beitragvon feli » 30.05.2010 - 07:18

Hi Ksenija,

the more caves and hiding places, the better.
I would take the battered fish out and let him recover by himself in a plastic box or small aquarium for a few days.

And I´d turn the heater off, room temperature should be fine for them.
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Beitragvon K. de Leuw » 30.05.2010 - 08:21

Hello Ksenija and welcome here!

Gwyneeth hat geschrieben:Acutally it is but it wasn't that injured when I took that picture. Here's a new pic I took yesterday...


It will not kill him. Put him in a well covered box and add some cones of Black Alnus.

I'm planning on putting more plants.


You can use Elodea or Ceratophyllum you find in ponds free of fish.

80 l (cca 20 cms of water). It's 80 x 30 x 35 cm.


Just 50 l is just to small even for two of them!
Why only 20 cm?

It's about 26 now (with heater set to 24).


There is no need of a heater.

I create more caves with IAL leaves (they seem to love it). Do you think I should add more rocks or wood to form more caves?


You should add some tubes of cork and a sheet of cork immediatly! They will use it to hide in after lost fight. ghey even will get out of the water to rest on top of the cork or swimming plants as you can see here with a C. bankanensis on Ceratopteris:
Bild
They need hiding places where they can take air without beeins seen by the winner of the fight!


I was planing to leave them as lons as it takes for them to form a pair, then keep the pair and give others away.


Because of the lack of hiding places you will loose four of them - of you are lucky!

I do have one male and female that are more together than not... but then again she seems to wonder around a lot and he's guarding his cave.


May be a pair and may cause risk of death for the others! It takes less than one night for a pair to kill them all!


I really hope I wont have to separate them. I might just wait and see if the aggression will stop eventually when they see which cave is whose.


If you had an tank of several thousand litres your dream may come true. But in a very small tank of 50 l only you will be lucky if you get a harmonising pair and four dead Snakeheads!


Oh one more thing (regarding pairing): the breeder (Armin, I believe you know him!) said they're already F1 and that F2 breeding hasn't been documented yet. Could it be the reason for them not pairing by now?


They are just teenagers trying first love.

Best regards and good luck!
Klaus from germany
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Beitragvon Gwyneeth » 30.05.2010 - 18:21

Hi all and thank you for your answers!

I was aware things are not ideal, but I didn't know it was that bad. As I said, this is the first time I put my hands on channas, and I'm to be first in my Country so informations about them... well I just learned with trial and error. I did google a lot but I actually found very little. This is the first place ppl seem to have answers and I'm very happy to find you!!

As I already said, it wasn't my intention to keep 6 assams in 50 l, (it's 50 cause it's not filled to the top, all because I was told the water level should not be higher..). I was hoping they'll pair up soon so I can give others away. Also, I was told that 80 l would be enough to house one pair. I did order a 200 l tank but it kinda didn't work out (the guy that was supposed to do it ruined few tanks of 60 l so I didn't want to have a leaking 200 l tank in my home. It's on hold for now untill I get my paycheck).

I was about to keep a pair in this 80 l untill they grow a bit and then transphere them to a bigger thank (my plan was to order a tank of this size: 140 x 40 x 33, is that ok?).

They are only 10 cms big now (acutally only the big male is 10, others are smaller, and one female is only 6 or 7 cm long) so I thought this might be ok for them for the time being.

I get the more hiding places thing, but I don't think it's too bright! It's an old 15 W T8 on 80 l (ok, 50-60 ) and plants don't seem to like it. If I make more hiding places than light should not bother them?

I had to put to 1/6 exposure to take that picture so you can see the tank, it's much darker in real life.


Oh, regarding the heater, I was told that they need to have 20 degrees during the winter and it was very cold this winter out here so the temperature would have been between 11 and 15 °C. Isn't it too cold? And now I don't think it can be bellow 26 as the room teperature is 26 + add some electronics and neon light. Is it really too hot for them?


The male with missing scales seem to be healed a bit, I don't see him figt so much anymore. All three males seem to be even now, but I suppose a fight could happen every moment. Do I separate the one with most damage or the one that makes the damage?



Oh one more thing (regarding pairing): the breeder (Armin, I believe you know him!) said they're already F1 and that F2 breeding hasn't been documented yet. Could it be the reason for them not pairing by now?



They are just teenagers trying first love.


So do you think there is a possiblity of them pairing after all? I know they're young, but Armin asked me many times if they have paired yet so I thought somehow that it should have happened already.

Has anyone here got an F2 spawn of assams or similar channas?



Thank you for your time :D I know how it is when someone asks "stupid" beginner questions about bettas and that it takes patience to answer them, so I appreciate your help. I'm not begginer in aquaristics in general, but channas are really something new to me and I really want to make them feel good and to live a nice life.

Cheers from Croatia!
Ksenija
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Beitragvon Auke » 30.05.2010 - 21:50

Hello Ksenija,

it's not that bad at all. !! I've bred them in a 50 x 35 cm. In this link some pictures show this http://www.igl-home.de/forum/phpBB2/vie ... php?t=3994
Their natural habitat is not like open water as I've been told.
Lots of hiding places are, as written in previous replys, important. Further it is important not to keep them at a temperature above 20 degrees Celsius all year long. I've kept mine outside at a temp of 15-20 degrees Celsius for a few months. After I took them back inside they've bred succesfully.
And about filling to the top... They need some space between the top/lid and the water-surface to enable them to breath air. But, it's not that there is a maximum of 20 cm. water-level.
And .. this F2 question .. it's brought up because of the possibilty that only wild-caught spec. Assam will breed because they've had a cool period? Well, this seems unlogical to me. The wild-caught Assams are small youngsters to (the ones I've seen that were listed as such) and won't have had a cool period as well. Similar species have been bred further tham F1 for sure.


regards,
Auke
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Beitragvon Gwyneeth » 30.05.2010 - 22:16

Hello Auke, thank you very much :D

I feel much better now. However I'm aware my tank is not satisfying for now. I will surely plant it more and make more caves and such, but if they don't pair up soon, it will be far not enough liters for them. They've been peacefull by know probably cause they started to mature just now, not before. I believe now is the time they set-up their teritorial questions and stuff...

Thanks for the pics also, your fish are beautiful!! How big are the adults? Some tell me they grow up to 20 cm and some only about 15. I'd like them to remain smaller as I'm not sure I'll be able to get them much bigger tank for now (too small apartment!) :lol:

So 15 °C is not too cold? That's great then, I wont have to put a heater there at all :D
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Beitragvon Auke » 30.05.2010 - 22:39

Hi Ksenija,

If fed properly (above 20 degrees Celsius every 2-3 days and a variety of food, with lower temps the amount of food should be adjusted) they will grow up to 15-17cm. max. I think they could even go to 10 degrees Celsius if the temperature drops slowly and not all of a sudden.

cheers,
Auke
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Beitragvon Gwyneeth » 31.05.2010 - 13:50

2-3 times a day? Oh my, I've been doing everyhing wrong :o
I've been told to feed them once a day while young and later on every few days. They're now getting variety of pellets (high protein), ocasional live food and betta culls once a day. Should I feed them more? They seem to be hungry all the time but as I've been told, I shouldn't overfeed them.

Thanks again :D
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Beitragvon Auke » 31.05.2010 - 14:08

:D No, again there's no need to worry .. I mean to say one day you feed them wich should be followed by one or two days without food. Youngsters (up to 6 cm.) should be fed every day.
Snakeheads can be easily overfed wenn being fed every day.


regards,
Auke
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Beitragvon Gwyneeth » 31.05.2010 - 16:53

Oh, now it's a bit more clear :D

And how do I know they've had enough? They always seem to be hungry... Usually when I see the bellys growing I quit for that day...

Oh, and I've noticed they eat some vegetables! They've eaten almost all hygrophyla that was in there and now if a piece of apogoneton falls of they fight for it and eat it like it's the best piece of meat. Then I really feel I don't feed them enough :lol:
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