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Betta ocellata ... Betta Pallifina ????

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Dale
 Dale
(@dale)
Active Member
Beigetreten: Vor 11 Jahren
Beiträge: 8
Themenstarter  

Hello Henning Zellmer,

You know very well Betta ocellata and Betta Pallifina.
I have a question for you.
With this photo, can you tell me what fish is it ?

/

/

He had the name of Betta compuncta. The female do not have the black spots on the body as the female betta compunsta !
The female is like the mâle. The male and the female have an orange color on the anal fin and lower half of caudal fin.
Thank you in advance for your help.


Zitat
R.Brode
(@r-brode)
Reputable Member
Beigetreten: Vor 15 Jahren
Beiträge: 484
 

Hi Dale,

I'm not Henning, but I'd tend to say it's pallifina.

viele Grüße , Richard Fischer, geb. Brode

IGL120


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Stefan
(@stefan)
Honorable Member
Beigetreten: Vor 18 Jahren
Beiträge: 592
 

It's neither. I too have had this or a similar fish labeled 'compuncta' but it was most definitely not. Both mine and those linked here, if not the same, are a new unimac variety and will probably be described a new species.


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Henning Zellmer
(@henning-zellmer)
Estimable Member
Beigetreten: Vor 14 Jahren
Beiträge: 130
 

Dear Dale,
as Stefan wrote before this fish was imported as compuncta and derives from the locality of compuncta near Melak.
It's very confusing but we have three different names for these fish for the same locality:

1. Betta compuncta (but it differs from the description of compuncta, where the female has a yellow margin in anal and caudal fin and black dots at the back part of her body)
2. Betta pallifina "green" or "golden" (I will open a new thread with pics soon; they differ very clear from the "real" pallifina of Muara Taweh, Barito River)
3. Betta unimaculata with orange fin margins (Stefan wrote about them here and in "amazonas"-magazine) but there are also unimaculatas from there without orange margins (I have two unimaculata pairs imported as unimaculata "Mahakam", where no male and only one female have orange fin margins. Look at the thread "Betta unimaculata Mahakam" in this forum).

The catcher are sure that at minimum two different Bettas from unimaculata-group occur in the same habitat what in my eyes would be very unusual.
The "best" name at this moment maybe Betta cf. unimaculata Melak like Stefan suggested.

I suggest, someone should make his next holidays near Melak to have a close look at the rivers around...?
Best regards
Henning


AntwortZitat
Stefan
(@stefan)
Honorable Member
Beigetreten: Vor 18 Jahren
Beiträge: 592
 

I can't find Melak mentioned in the compuncta description Henning?


AntwortZitat
Henning Zellmer
(@henning-zellmer)
Estimable Member
Beigetreten: Vor 14 Jahren
Beiträge: 130
 

Hi Stefan,

I don't have the compuncta description in mind (what location is described there?), I just added the two informations I got:

1.) Haji Badaruddin, who described "his" unimaculata Mahakam, wrote about the locality "These wild betta was collected from Sungai Hajuq, Kalimantan Timur, Indonesia... Initially, it was taught to be Betta compuncta as they were collected from the locality where compuncta was found."
I think, Sungai Hajuq is very near to Melak.
See the nice pictures on: http://site.clearwateraquatics.biz/main ... &AccId=792

2.) Abdul Sahal told me, he got his "Betta pallifina green, Melak" from the typus locality of compuncta. That's why they exported them as compuncta! After all experts told him that it's not compuncta, he called them "pallifina Melak" or "unimaculata Mahakam" again like they did before the description of compuncta. ;-)
We should have in mind, that there maybe different catching places in the main river and it's tributaries or small ponds and lakes. So it's not clear yet, if we have two or three different Bettas from that region around Melak.

Best regards
Henning


AntwortZitat
Stefan
(@stefan)
Honorable Member
Beigetreten: Vor 18 Jahren
Beiträge: 592
 

Ah I get it now. Yeah that makes sense for them to have named it compuncta in the past. I do know that compuncta's type locality is extremely difficult to reach and am told that it takes a few days to travel there? One of the authors of the species told me that.

Type locality is: Kalimantan Timur: Long Iram subdistrict; Mahakam basin; feeder stream to Sungai Hajuq ca. 800 m east of NE Lampunut camp (holotype).

Distribution. Streams and swamps of the inland Kerengas and heath forests in Pari branch of the upper Mahakam basin in Kalimantan Timur.

It could be very close to Melak alright :) The paper does say that compuncta is found from more areas surrounding the camp, but we're talking metres her. Which doesn't mean it doesn't have a wider distribution.

More than one populations with their variety living in close proximity I'd say has merit to it; but seperate species indeed seems unlikely, like you said. :)

You don't have the description Henning? If you'd like it, PM me your Email please.


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Dale
 Dale
(@dale)
Active Member
Beigetreten: Vor 11 Jahren
Beiträge: 8
Themenstarter  

Hello there,

Thank you for all these enriching exchanges.

I forgot to give you important information ... the male does not exceed 7 cm in length.

Here is information on Betta Compuncta:

http://www.wwf.se/source.php?id=1120911

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/forums/ind ... topic=1922

http://hergunfish.awardspace.com/compuncta.htm&ei=MhLxTYfgDNSEhQf6_dk5&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ7gEwAQ&prev=/searc h"> http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl ... ev=/search% 3Fq% 3Dbetta 2Bcompuncta% 26hl% 3Den%%% 3D1024% 26biw 26bih% 3D449%% 26prmd 3Divns

So this fish is a new fish waiting for a description and a name ... I understand?

How could we call it in the meantime?
Betta sp. Ocellata, Betta sp. Pallifina or Betta sp. Compuncta?


AntwortZitat
Stefan
(@stefan)
Honorable Member
Beigetreten: Vor 18 Jahren
Beiträge: 592
 

It's not a new species awaiting description beforehand; rather it's material awaiting examination, which will determine what its status is. :)

Instead of 'sp.' I'd recommend using 'cf.', and it already has a label as suggested by Henning up here :) I hope that helps Dale? The WWF link shows a real compuncta female.

The Seriously Fish forum link depicts the fish I had as well: cf. unimaculata from Melak. These fish most certainly exceed 70mm TL by at least another 30-50mm.


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Marco Marsili
(@marco-marsili)
Active Member
Beigetreten: Vor 12 Jahren
Beiträge: 10
 

Hi everybody, first of all let me apologize to the owner of this thread...i hope not to disturb so much....

As a member of the new italian betta association (AIB) i ordered my first wild Betta from Abdul...and they were labelled as Betta unimaculata "Mahakam"
Inside of the import the association ordered another couple of Betta unimaculata "Mahakam" but not from Abdul, rather from Hermanus Haryanto. So there were 4 fishes (2 couple) ordered of Betta unimaculata "Mahakam" from 2 different sources.
During the transhipping one female died, so in Italiy arrived only one female and 2 males.
When i went picking up my couple, the association give me the other male as a gift, so i arrived home with 2 males and 1 female.
The day after they where in my tank a couple spawned and 20+ fries are still growing in my tank. During the incubation period i removed the female and the other male from the tank, leaving the "father" in pace.
2 days in the other tank and i got another spawn....so while the male was left there, i removed the female putting her into a plastic tank.
That night the suicide happened...i'm still not understanding from where she jumps off the tank...but next morning i retrived her on the floor...dead.

After also the other male released 40+ fries i put both of them in a separate tank, in order to make them recover from starvation and i'm still make the fries growing with artemia nauplii once or twice a day.

Now that's the question: now that i have one moment free from the university i'm looking carefully at the two males....they seems different and i'm not sure they belong to the same species...
Both of unimaculata complex for sure, but when i read about the "Betta cf unimaculata Melak" and when i've seen the pics posted in this (and in others thread) my doubts grew bigger and bigger...
Having ordered one pair from Abdul, one of my male is for sure Betta cf unimaculata Melak, but do you know anything from the unimaculata "Mahakam" selled by Hermanus Haryanto? Is there at least 0,0000001% probabilities that i've not a hybrid in my tank?

I broke my camera, but as soon as possible i will post some pic...many thanks to you and sorry again for disturbing!


AntwortZitat
Henning Zellmer
(@henning-zellmer)
Estimable Member
Beigetreten: Vor 14 Jahren
Beiträge: 130
 

Dear Marco,
as you probably know the Mahakam River basin is avery big area and some tributaries seems to have special variants of unimaculata. The Bettas from Sahal should come from the area of Melak. Not far away (and also named with the location Melak) a form with orange stripes in their anal and caudal fins occur. Sahal named them "pallifina Melak" and separates a golden and a green form coming from two different locations of the same area. I received all of them and my conclusion at this time is the following:

There are at minimum three different "Mahakam" unimaculata strains existing:
1.) unimaculata "Mahakam" with NO orange stripes at all. They are very similar to the "old" form unimaculata "Jantur Gemurah" that is also from Mahakam River system
2.) cf. unimaculata Melak (named "green" and "golden pallifina") with orange stripes and sometimes orange cheeks. Stefan introduced this form e.g. in "amazonas" magazine
3.) a very blue coloured form introduced by Haji Baddarudin as unimaculata Mahakam from a tributary some 100 km distance to Melak very near to the type locality of Betta compuncta. I have the suspicion that it is similar with Betta "ultima", but no one can (want to) tell, where ultima comes from (Andree Chen only told it's from Mahakam system, whereas Sahal thought ultima is coming from Sengata River. Last investigations show, that this could be a mix-up with the so-called Betta "champion, what is now known as a cf. unimaculata form from Muara Wahau).

(Betta compuncta is also a big mystery, because it seems to be gone suddenly from it's habitat after it was described... Maybe the 2.)nd form is compuncta, but the most specialist who had seen them say: no.)

I'm afraid that the couple I introduced in this forum as unimaculata Mahakam is a male from 1.) with a female from 2.)! They didn't breed together (and will not, because the female died) but I cannot say for what reason (because it's normally very easy to have cross-breeding between the most unis and ocellatas).

I don't know, where Hermanus unis are from, we should ask him!

The problem is that each tributary of Mahakam could have a little different unimaculata form. On the other hand it's very likely that we've got only a few variations into the hobby. In general there is no insuperable boundary between the habitats of the known forms and so it's a exciting question, where a "normal" reproduction ends and a hybridisation is beginning, especially when you have fertile frys! The discussion will go on...

Best regards
Henning


AntwortZitat
Henning Zellmer
(@henning-zellmer)
Estimable Member
Beigetreten: Vor 14 Jahren
Beiträge: 130
 

Some additional informations:
1.) That's life: yesterday I observed that the unimaculata Mahakam male is breeding! I told that the female is dead (she jumped out of the tank two weeks ago) and that I thought male and female could belong to different species. So I'm looking forward to see the fry of both and how they will look like. (and there's the question arising, if the sex was the reason for her to jump out of the tank... :???: )
2.) You can see more pictures of my unis etc. on my facebook-page.
3.) Hermanus is also on facebook, you can easily ask him this way.


AntwortZitat
Marco Marsili
(@marco-marsili)
Active Member
Beigetreten: Vor 12 Jahren
Beiträge: 10
 

First of all i want to say thank you for advices!
You've a great fishroom with many awesome Bettas!

Now i understand the problem behind unimac from mahakam...so one of my two spawns is "hybrid"...i'll let the fries grown, so i will be sure wich one is "correct".
Probably in my tank i have a cf green pallifina melak and a male "ultima-like"...also my female kill herself jumping out the tank so i will never know wich type belongs to... sigh....

I just find your FB contact and also stefan's and Hermanus's...as soon as possible i'll send him a PM concerning his "Mahakam".

Good luck with your fries!

Really...thanks so much for your courtesy...here in italy we have many skilled splendens-breeders but nothing about other Betta species :-(
From now on i'll focus on the unimaculata complex that is really AWESOME! If you're ok with this, i'll continue posting my experience on this board also with images from my camera, but i can't write/read in deutsch...i have to use my poor english...


AntwortZitat
Marco Marsili
(@marco-marsili)
Active Member
Beigetreten: Vor 12 Jahren
Beiträge: 10
 

Hermanus Haryanto answered me that: "My unimac locality is around mahakam river, small river that connect to Mahakam." and that his unimac are not like pallifina Melak...


AntwortZitat
Marco Marsili
(@marco-marsili)
Active Member
Beigetreten: Vor 12 Jahren
Beiträge: 10
 

Here's a pic of my dominant young male :D

Merry Christmas to you all, and happy new year!!


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