Sind sie wirklich "fusca"

No, no idea what it's based on; only know raja and fusca are Sumatran.

Karen, in the last description papers it was said fusca is only know from the type material. Collecting fresh material also failed. The pugnax is a mess and they have just begun cleaning it up. A lot of fish are labeled fusca but are something else. I know the photos from that website, and they should represent something else as well but I don't know what. So I believe there is no fusca around. And most fish thought to be fusca are now ID'd as raja.

As for cf. balunga; the fish shown here are no akarensis type but surely pugnax types.

Karen,
in what language is the description that you have?

PS: There is no "Sumatran" in BI, but "Sumatera" *smile*

Karen,
in what language is the description that you have?

Are you refering to the web page I mentioned? If so, that's in Japanese.
In the post above, Stefan writes:

Karen, in the last description papers it was said fusca is only know from the type material.

The description that Stefan is refering to, I don't have that one.

Kind regards,
Karen

Hello,

it´s very difficult to identify species from photos. I cept and ceep severel forms looking like fusca, raja, schalleri, pugnax. The differences between father and son or brothers are often bigger than the differences between the forms. The proportions of the body vary with the circumstances when growing up. The length of the ventral fin may vary between brothers, it may vary between left and right at the same individuum. Even the differences between the same individuum at several ages are very big. I allready kept a female with a different pattern of stripes on its sides.

The fishes of Christa are photographed using different light. This might be the reason for the different colours.

There may be differences in biology between the forms.
Jürgen Schmidt says in his dissertation, B fusca produces "Nähreier" (small eggs, that are eaten before the female lays the reproductive Eggs), but I don´t know, if he really kept fusca. I thought to have got fusca, but I´d never seen the small eggs.

1992 I bought some Betta named as fusca. They had been imported from Jambi, Sumatra, by Mimbon, the seller said. The ventral fin of the males was very long, it could reach the caudal fin. The look of them was very similar to the fishes of Karen. They were breeding up to 250 young fishes at the same time! After loosing this population because of selling too much of them (I kept 20 oft them but there was only one female, that didn´t pair any time), I looked around and bought several similar looking forms named fusca, pugnax or schalleri in several shops, but I never got a form of similar productivity.

Excuse my terrible english.

Gruß, Klaus

Hello Klaus,

you wrote:

Hello,

it´s very difficult to identify species from photos. I cept and ceep severel forms looking like fusca, raja, schalleri, pugnax. The differences between father and son or brothers are often bigger than the differences between the forms. The proportions of the body vary with the circumstances when growing up. The length of the ventral fin may vary between brothers, it may vary between left and right at the same individuum. Even the differences between the same individuum at several ages are very big. I allready kept a female with a different pattern of stripes on its sides.

Can I conclude, that you believe they are all the same species varying in locality, appearance and built up one gene pool (propagating with each other), only?!

With best regsrds,
Jan

Can I conclude, that you believe they are all the same species varying in locality, appearance and built up one gene pool (propagating with each other), only?!

With best regsrds,
Jan

Hello Jan,

I don´t belive anything. May be, there are very much different species, may be, there are a view only. There are several forms like fusca, schalleri and so on, very difficult to distinguish. The differences in ecologie and behavior and number of eggs for example may be bigger than the differences in appearence.

Best regards
Klaus

Hallo alle,

Ich danke euch für alle Antworten.

Etwas neues ist hier passiert... die "unbekannten" sind jetzt Eltern. Das Männchen hat diese Nacht ungefähr 20 Jungen gespückt

Ich werde probieren, neue Fotos zu machen. Vielleicht wird es euch helfen.

Bis bald

Christa

Hallo Christa,

ich gratuliere Dir! 20 Junge sind aber wenig. Legt die Form so wenige Eier, kamen nur so wenige zur Entwickling, hast Du nicht alle gefunden, wurden welche von Beckengenossen gefressen?

Gruß, Klaus

Gratuliere!

Hallo,

Danke für die Gratulieren

Um Klaus zu antworten, muss ich noch sagen, dass es das ganz 1. Wurf ist, es ist vielleicht auch warum sie so wenige Junge haben. Das war aber nicht das 1. Versuch... aber alle letzte mal kamen keine Jungen.

LG

Christa

Hallo Christa,

wir groß sind denn die Jungen? Bei mit waren und sind sie immer so um die 7 mm lang.

Gruß, Klaus

Hallo,

Bei mir sind auch die Jungen 7mm lang. Von welcher Art sprichst du?

Hallo,

Bei mir sind auch die Jungen 7mm lang. Von welcher Art sprichst du?

Wenn ich das wüsste. B. fusca, schalleri, pugnax, das geht alles durcheinander. Wie ich oben sagte, hatte ich mal als fusca gekaufte, von IGLern auf einem Stammtisch im Ruhrgebiet nach Fotos als schalleri bezeichnete, die brachten bis 250 Junge pro Brut. Die hatten 7 mm Länge, wie auch die weniger produktiven Formen, die ich danach hatte bzw. habe.

Gruß, Klaus